Talk:Seven Sages (Ocarina of Time)
Eh Seven sages coloring Should we have it go as follows? The sage of water rather than The sage of water We did this on the goddesses page I believe.--'⽩㤖㒾 - 㑻' 17:52, December 5, 2009 (UTC), 您的饱经世故者. Triforce does it there. --'⽩㤖㒾 - 㑻' 18:21, December 5, 2009 (UTC), 您的饱经世故者. Dont know if itle be worth the trouble but If so then it would be The sage of light The sage of forest The Sage of fire The sage of water The sage of shadow The sage of Spirit As for zelda, ide just leave the font as black Leekduck (vote for me, and you will get a hot dog) (talk) 18:36, December 5, 2009 (UTC) Favorite Sage Does anyone prefer a specific Sage over the others; which is your favorite Sage? Sam samurai :Hey Sam samurai, welcome to the wiki! What we generally do around here is if you ask one of these type of questions, it should be on a forum, namely the Watercooler. Please try to do that more often!'-- C2' / 03:07, December 14, 2009 (UTC) Oh, sorry. Thanks for pointing that out. Sam samurai Immortality? Sage "Descendants" The seven sages from OoT have successors, such as those seen in Wind Waker and A Link to the Past (ok, they used to be called "wise men", but that was in an old US mistranslation of the original Japenese's "seven sages", and it was revised to call them "seven sages" in more recent releases of ALttP). Some later sages are referred to as "descendants", implying blood relatives. However, Sages like Saria and Fado are Kokiri, who are children for their entire life and should never be able to reproduce at all. As both of their power is known to be passed on, it's clear that Sage status/powers can be passed to a spiritual successor who is not biologically related to the previous sage. As far as I've seen, that's never mentioned on the wiki. It is significant though, as it explains how the ALttP/FSA maidens can be the successors of the original sages despite their species differences, and refutes the main point of evidence for the theory that the Rito are descended from Zoras (Medli could simply be Laruto's successor, rather than biological descendant. It in fact, the game says exactly that in the original Japanese, with the US's blood relative stuff being a bad translation.). I expect there are other instances in which this point is significant. I wanted to bring this up and see if people agreed and thought it worthy of explanation in main space.--Fierce Deku (talk) 07:01, December 2, 2010 (UTC) :If it does go on the page it should most defiantly be put under the theories section. I have no problem with this on the page if it is under that section. If it wasn't in the theories section I would not agree with having it on the page since it is just a theory. Nothing more nothing less. This brings up some good and interesting points but they can't be proven fact. --Birdman5589 (talk) 07:09, December 2, 2010 (UTC) ::I don't see how it's an unproven theory: :::Fado is a Sage>>>Fado is also a Kokiri>>>Kokiri are children their whole lives>>>Children can't reproduce (and are unlikely to evolve into plants even if they did)>>>Fado therefore can't reproduce>>>Makar inherits Fados sage power anyway>>>Sage power can therefore be passed down to beings who are not biologically descended from the sage who is transferring said power. ::Where is there a break in that logic? That doesn't even assume anyone is a successor to a sage from a different game. It's all spelled out in Wind Waker alone. I just don't see what you mean about it being theory.--Fierce Deku (talk) 07:24, December 2, 2010 (UTC) :::While I the logic works and makes perfect sense, let me quote what the Theory template says: "Theory warning: This section contains theoretical information based on the viewpoints or research of one or several other users. It has not been officially verified by Nintendo and its factual accuracy is disputed." This is simply information based on research in my opinion and not verified by Nintendo. Do I think that this theory is highly plausible? Yes. That doesn't mean I think it should be taken as fact. --Birdman5589 (talk) 15:16, December 2, 2010 (UTC) ::::Yes, it is research, and research can produce confirmed facts. Everything we say on this wiki can be considered the result of research. For example, I saw a while back on the MM section for light arrows that only 3 specific kinds of enemies would drop a purple rupee when defeated by a light arrow. I decided to do some research. I got into the game, and shot various enemies with light arrows, and several types not on the list dropped a purple rupee. Thus I can conclude that the list I'd seen was inaccurate, so I edited it. Nintendo did not "verify" this anywhere. They do not have to verify that things shown in their games actually did happen in their games. I don't understand why this sage thing wouldn't be considered fact. Maybe we just have two different opinions on how obvious something has to be to be considered a fact for wiki pruposes.--Fierce Deku (talk) 04:05, December 4, 2010 (UTC) :::::That's a bit more of an irrelevant matter, based on that's small gameplay element (a lot more trivial, mind you) while this is a large plot component. Nintendo would have to verify this specific topic as it can merely go both ways at the current moment. However, the Rito-Zora theory, along with Korok-Kokiri theory, are in fact, not theories any more. Based on an article awhile back (can't remember when), Eiji Aonuma, lead director of The Wind Waker, in case you've forgotten, confirmed both those theories. "They appear different, but they have inherited their blood." That's either some super creepy thing, or its saying that there is a blood relation and, with that, it makes it just as plausible that each sage could be a blood relative, and therefore a descendant. - McGillivray227 05:08, December 4, 2010 (UTC) :::::There's a difference between your Light Arrow example and the sage thing. The Light Arrow thing can be verified by playing the game and observing the results directly, whereas the sage thing cannot (id est, you cannot play any Zelda game and watch a cutscene of Fado passing on his sage powers to Makar without reproducing or whatever). Also, I would question the assumption that Kokiri cannot reproduce. The Kokiri look like Human/Hylian children their whole lives, but that doesn't mean that they're eternally at the same stage growth-wise. The Kokiri are a separate species and could therefore be fully functioning adults past the growth stage of their lives while still looking like Hylian children (id est, the adult stage of their life cycle merely resembles the child stage of a Human/Hylian life cycle). Of course, Nintendo probably didn't think about any of this when they were making the games. -'Isdrak ' 05:37, December 4, 2010 (UTC) ::::: Isdrakthül said it perfectly. Some things you can prove by research as it can inherently be observed. In this case you can't observe the statements you are saying are fact and therefore it is theory. --Birdman5589 (talk) 05:53, December 4, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Ok, the whole "Kokiri aren't necessarily incapable of reproducing" thing makes sense as a reason this is a theory. Given the way they are described and what we know, the most probable conclusion (I think) is that they don't reproduce, and that's how I think they were intended to be when Nintendo made them up, but we can't prove that for sure. You're right, they're a bunch of magic fairy kids and it's never really explained where they come from (as far as I remember), so we can't necessarily assume they are equivalent to Human/Hylian children. I hadn't heard the things Aonuma said in that interview. That's interesting, though I have to wonder what that somewhat nonsensical sentence was supposed to mean in original Japanese (I assume it's a translation). So "Kokiri don't reproduce" is the part here that we can't be certain about. Though I think we can probably all agree that the whole Sage/Kokiri/Korok/descent confusion is most likely because Nintendo was just not paying attention (again).--Fierce Deku (talk) 07:13, December 4, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Leave it to Nintendo to create logical flaws capable of turning the universe inside-out...despite how crazy it is for children to reproduce, let alone to evolve into plants, this is clearly what Nintendo meant for us to assume (if they even intended for anything in particular to be assumed), and when pressed, Aonuma eventually confirmed both the Kokiri-->Korok and Zora-->Rito theories, and a natural corollary is that both species can reproduce (obviously the Zoras can, but the issue here is the Kokiri) to facilitate evolution. I think if Nintendo meant for us to assume they were "spiritual descendants", they would have said "successors" instead. Jedimasterlink (talk) 07:31, December 4, 2010 (UTC) ::::::I don't intend to change any articles at this point, but I feel like I should point out here that the original quote, which I found here, states: :::::"We created the Rito as the evolved form of the Zora that appeared in "Ocarina of Time" and the Korogs as what the Kokiri became once they left the forest. They appear different, but they have inherited their blood." ::::::He uses the word "evolved" when talking about the Rito into Zora, but with the Koroks he changes his wording to "what the Kokiri became after they left the forest". That implies that they did not literally evolve from Kokiri, like the Rito did from Zora. It may even be a rapid transformation of individuals (not quite immediate though, as Kokiri were seen partying at the ranch in the OoT ending). Individual Koroks may have literally "inherited the blood" of the individual Kokiri they previously were before being transformed. So, I don't see any definitive reason to believe Kokiri do OR don't reproduce. Again I just wanted to point this put, I'm not editing mainspace about this anytime soon, unless I see a page make an unsupported claim.--Fierce Deku (talk) 07:31, December 7, 2010 (UTC) Death before Awakening "Ocarina of Time has also introduced another theory that many people have discussed. What became of the sages before they were put into the Chamber of Sages? Some say that they had to die before they could become a sage. However, this is not elaborated upon. It would make sense, however, if configured from sections of the story. Rauru said, "I am Rauru, one of the ancient sages..." meaning, ancient. That is one thing to configure to. Another, is that when Nabooru, the Sage of Spirit, was brainwashed a second time, she never came back until you beat Twinrova. Saria, the Forest Sage, was ultimately captured, and you never saw her again until you defeated Phantom Ganon. Darunia, the Fire Sage, went into the boss room of the Fire Temple and told you that he did not have the proper weapons to defeat Volvagia. But he went in there to fight the serpent anyways. Ruto, the Sage of Water, did almost the same thing. She left to the boss room where the Morpha roamed. Unequipped as she was, the odds must have been devastating. This could all either mean, the sages died before they became a sage, or they waited for Link to come and awaken them. This theory has been discussed and argued on." I feel this is actually worthy to be on the page. But, is it fanfiction? And if it is worthy to be on, can someone even rephrase it to Zeldapedia's standards? --'BassJapas' 15:53, April 23, 2011 (UTC) :Wind Waker tells us that when a sage dies, you need another one to take their place. Laruto and Fado are ghosts, and can't act as sages anymore because of it. The Twinrova said they were going to simply brainwash Nabooru again, not kill her. Also, OoT Zelda is clearly not dead at any point. It's an interesting thought to be sure, but it doesn't quite add up, so I don't think it belongs on the page.--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce']][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 20:05, April 23, 2011 (UTC) ::Case in point why I should replay my games. Can't remember anything that happens in them anymore >.< --'BassJapas' 20:08, April 23, 2011 (UTC) I don't think Ruto actually says shes going to face the boss. She just asks Link for helps and then disappears if I remember rightly. Also when you play Saria's Song while before finishing the Forest Temple you can contact her. She'll tell you its full of monsters and asks for your help. True the monsters could of killed her but I think you can do it even during the fight with Phantom Ganon. Oni Link 21:25, April 23, 2011 (UTC) phantom hourglass section Ability to have descendants Ruto does not say sages can't marry. As far as I can remember (if I'm thinking of the right quote that is) she says she can no longer be with Link now. I think that can jest as easily be interpreted as Link is off on an epic quest to save the world and is a bit busy for inter species marriage right now. On top of that it's clear that at least one member of the sages must be allowed marry since the royal family of Hyrule shares a bloodline and Zelda is a sage Oni Link 12:42, August 23, 2011 (UTC) I think after Skyward Sword it is all pretty obvious. I think its all based on Ganon's (dont care about his Skayward name) curse, that Link and Zelda have to be reborn forever. I THINK he said someting like "suffering the same fate again and again", wich makes me also think that everyone who has a strong relation to them, i.e. Ganon, the Sages, Impa, ALSO have to relive the same fate again and again, because well, if its my fate to meet you, you have to be there. With this knowledge i would say that just like Link and Zelda, they never have kids and just get reborn. Maybe not the at same time as Link and Zelda, who ALLWAYS have the same age, and are younger than Ganon. Thats because they get born, when Ganon gets too strong. Since the Sages ages are totaly random, i would assume that they just get reborn when they die. (Or maybe a few years before they die? that would be bad when you meet the sage, and its a 2 year old kid :P ) Help! This is a question about Ocarina of Time 3d. I have the six medallions. I've gone to the temple of time. How do I get the light arrows. Sheik isn't there. What do I do?Cooljoshua13 (talk) 16:38, November 5, 2011 (UTC) :Not sure why. It should work... Also, in the future please don't use talk pages for game questions. Try the forums for that. --EveryDayJoe45 (talk) 16:42, November 5, 2011 (UTC) EDIT CONFLICT X2: Check again and make sure you have six. If that fails check to see if you have the light arrows. Or try approaching Ganon's Castle. If none of them work that leaves a new file as the only option I can think of. I've never heard of Sheik not appearing in the Temple of Time. Oni Link 16:46, November 5, 2011 (UTC) :For some reason, I didn't have tye spirit medallion anymore. So I had to beat Twinrova again. The first time I beat her I didn't have the Shadow Medallion yet. I thought I saved though. By the way, I'm new, so what forums are you talking about. 21:46, November 5, 2011 (UTC) ::At least you figured it out and its ok. Go here for the forums. --EveryDayJoe45 (talk) 21:47, November 5, 2011 (UTC) Picture Does anyone else think the current picture isn't very good? It only shows five of them, they are looking away, and its in rather dark lighting. --Killedbykeese (talk) 02:10, April 10, 2012 (UTC) :Finding an in-game alternative is by and large impossible. I guess one thing that could be done is to move the artwork to the infobox, but that would be difficult to do considering they would all have to be properly resized or not. I've seen on other wikis, they have some sort of coding that allows them to "layer" separate images on top of one another as if they were one big image, but I can't figure out to manipulate the coding. --Auron'Kaizer ' 10:33, April 10, 2012 (UTC) ::It wouldn't be that difficult to resize them surely. They all seem to be roughly the same from what I can see, Darunia and Raru being a bit wider than the rest but generally the same height. We all ready do multiple images for The Resistance and the Composer Brothers. There's also the option of a custom copy and pasted image provided that's acceptable by the site's standards I'm not really sure. Oni Link 22:34, April 10, 2012 (UTC) this is for the krokie not being able to reproduce I agree they dont reproduce but i thought thr great deku tree created them by magic because the treat him like his their dad so fado could could be a blood reletve to markar if my theory is correct You could get pictures of some of them, paste them onto google docs, group them, download the image, then upload it onto the wiki. -- Spirit Zelda: Help! Malladus stole my body! 01:16, October 22, 2013 (UTC) Adding to Zelda as Time Sage theory In re-watching the end of Ocarina of Time, I realized it didn't really make sense why Zelda plays the her Lullaby instead of the Song of Time to send them back. She also mentions that as a sage it's within her power to send Link back. I feel that the Sage of Time theory both supports and explains those things. So I added " Specifically, Zelda tells Link that "As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with [[ocarina]]." When she plays the ocarina to send Link back, Zelda does not play the Song of Time, but rather her own song, Zelda's Lullaby" but it was removed for reasons of not really 'harming or benefiting' the article. When I asked about it, it was suggested I put it up for discussion. Do you all think that adding those things helps put forth evidence for the theory (while perhaps explaining an oddity in the ending) or that it is irrelevant to the theory? Xelestial (talk) 18:40, December 13, 2012 (UTC) :I'm not sure that the actual method of sending Link back in time is relevant to the theory; all that matters it that she can do it at all. Saying that she could send Link back with her lullaby instead of the Song of Time sort of implies that anyone could send Link back in time if they played the Song of Time, which most likely isn't true. In OoT at least, the Song of Time is never shown to have any powers like that. Jedimasterlink (talk) 22:27, December 13, 2012 (UTC) Hero's Shade origin So about the whole Hero of Time getting sent to the Child Timeline and turning into the Hero's Shade thing. Isn't that something to note about since it was pretty much the Seven Sages and Ganon who did that to him, in a sense?--Zakitaro (talk) 09:53, July 20, 2015 (UTC) :Well for one I don't believe the Hyrule Historia specifies what caused him to live a life of regret, correct me if I'm wrong. It could have been the events of Majora's Mask or any number of things that happened afterwards. If we're to go with what the games directly sate it's as simple as not having a successor to teach his skills to (none of which were featured in Ocarina of Time). Secondly it's not something you can really pin on the sages. Ganondorf is the antagonistic force and the Sages helped stopped him. If we want to assume it was being sent back in time to live like an adult in a child's body that affected him then it still wouldn't be their fault since that seemed to be a decision of Zelda alone. No matter what way I squint at the situation I can't see the sages as being at fault anymore than the likes of Guru Guru. Oni Link 10:01, July 20, 2015 (UTC) ::Well actually, it was stated that the reason why the Hero of Time lived a life of regret was because he wasn't remembered as a hero as well as not passing down his skills to the next generation, so yeah, sending him back to an alternate timeline actually gave him a regretful life. The reason why I wrote it down in the Seven Sages page is because it was that Zelda (who among other things she messed up) who was technically responsible for that. This is just a quick question but, you would think it's the other things that Link from OoC and MM had to endure with his life which gave a regretful life rather than that, am I right? Since he also had at least one child (which leads to Link in Twilight Princess) that further makes me think " Is the Hero of Time a glory hound goth ghost or what?". May I also ask what did you mean by them appearing ALBW under the same name? --Zakitaro (talk) 10:21, July 20, 2015 (UTC) :::You made an edit saying the Seven Sages have only one appearance in the series but appear in different games under different titles. They have appeared in the moniker of the seven sages in a Link Between Worlds so the trivia isn't correct. Also as I believed we concluded in a lengthy discussion on Link's talk page, the descendant aspect of things is more spiritual in nature than literal. I'd say it's entirely possible Link died childless especially since Hyrule Historia gives us one time where he dies during the events of the game and yet more Link's continue to appear in later titles. Oni Link 10:37, July 20, 2015 (UTC) ::Isn't the name for this page "Seven Sages (Ocarina of Time)" though? So wouldn't that mean they have currently only appeared once? The other Sages are different characters not from Ocarina of Time so yeah. Not to offend your reasoning, but I'm pretty sure we concluded that descendant thing by me stating that whole "Bloodline of Knights of Hyrule, Link from Twilight Princess and Demise's curse" as well as me stating the reasons why reincarnation wouldn't make sense which you countered by saying some theories. Ether way though, since the Hyrule Historia specifically states that Link is the Hero of Time's descendant, that still makes it official. So anyways, is it okay to point out how the decision to send Link of OoT and MM to the Child Timeline was the reason why he had regrets until his descendant helped him?--Zakitaro (talk) 10:49, July 20, 2015 (UTC) Well taking it my the logic that it's Seven Sages (Ocarina of Time) then pointing out that they only appear in Ocarina of Time is completely pointless since it's clear in the title. That conversation ended when I went and researched the exact nature of what the original Japanese text was using for reincarnation and found concise evidence detailing the separate spirits of Hun and Po which made it clear there is an eternal and mortal part of the spirit. Of course the reincarnation bit is irrelevant here, the descendant bit it what's relevant. Not only are genetics factorial, by which I mean they spread out and thus after a couple of centuries everyone is a descendant of Link, the concept of the Knights of Hyrule and a descendant of the Hero are not mentioned anywhere in Twilight Princess itself. Other games also show that Links do not need to share a blood line. If Hyrule Historia mentions a connection then all it does is discredit itself and make everything make less sense -_-. But I digress, the only point important to this talk page is the sages, and even if we take Hyrule Historia's suggestion that Link is a glory seeking narcissist who doesn't appreciate what Zelda did for him, then it still doesn't have any relevance to this particular page since it was something Zelda did by herself. Though she is the leader of the sages her individual actions are not the actions of the entire group either physically or...I guess politically. Point is it's something she did without the aid of their power, consent and probably even knowledge. Oni Link 11:22, July 20, 2015 (UTC) :::Not trying to bring out this reincarnation or relatives reasoning again, but regardless of whether or not Twilight Princess didn't mention it, the Knights of Hyrule thing is still a thing (which is also a thing in ALBW). I kinda feel that the Link from Skyward Sword and other Links as well as their descendants (aside from those like Wind Waker who has a sister) often only have about one child as their offspring. Most of the Links don't seem to have any siblings after all. Maybe that's part of Demise's curse. Anyways though, about this Sages thing, Just because they only appeared in Ocarina of Time doesn't necessarily mean they won't appear again. The sequels did have same characters in different stories after all. I was mostly noting how they have descendants in other games though. It is kind of a thing in the Fallen Hero Timeline, isn't it? Aside from that, it was pretty much their fault (along with Ganon) why Link from Ocarina of Time had to go through all that though, wasn't it? They pretty much forced a little child to go through all that stuff without thinking of the consequences which led him to becoming the Hero's Shade (or worse in the Fallen Hero Timeline, even dying). They didn't even take away Ganon's piece of the Triforce and sealed him away which only lasted for about a few centuries at best. I feel that is something to note about as well.--Zakitaro (talk) 11:49, July 20, 2015 (UTC) Link also had an uncle in A Link to the Past who was part of the knights line since he knew the Sword Spin. That's another example of a sibling. It's still possible to assume but the key thing there is that it's an assumption. I still don't think you can really say its their fault since they were allies to Link and fought along side him. In fact most of the sages didn't even know about their role and it was Link that sought them out and enlisted their help. Only Rauru and Zelda were awakened by themselves and did anything to guide him. Additionally the one who first sent him out on his quest was The Great Deku Tree, who wasn't a sage. And it wasn't like they forced him into it. He always had a choice. It's the desire to do good and defeat evil that drove Link, not any characteristic that makes him inherently obey authority. Either way it's a completely opinionated and uncertain moral subject based on something that happens in another game that is only confirmed in an external source that contradicts its own reasoning. Not really fitting to mention it here. Oni Link 12:03, July 20, 2015 (UTC) :If you end it by saying that it's an assumption, then technically most of your logic about this is an assumption as well. Anyways though, about the Sages, they were the ones who said to him "please go save the world", "Your the chosen hero", "It's your destiny" and some other relying stuff. Exactly what else was he even supposed to do if the evil itself was targeting him and destroying those he sees as a threat? If you ask me, it also seems a little unfair to say Link had too much of a choice with it. He wasn't even a teenager and I doubt he fully understood the situation.--Zakitaro (talk) 12:15, July 20, 2015 (UTC) I admit that a lot of my logic is assumptions but I'm not trying to put it on the page. You're free to think the sages are to blame for encouraging Link but unless you can point to some instance where they literally forced Link or manipulated him into doing something he wasn't willing to do, that directly lead to the Hero's Shade, not indirectly, then it has no place in the article. Oni Link 12:20, July 20, 2015 (UTC) I'm merely pointing out that their intentions (or rather their leader's intentions) didn't go the right way. Being sent to the Child Timeline was pretty much the reason for the Hero of Time's troubles at life. Also to be noted is how sealing Link for seven years (instead of doing something more productive with that time) and using a seal (which wasn't forever) on Ganon without taking away his piece of the Triforce was a very bad move in the end. The point about their descendants is a fact, so it still has a point, doesn't it?--Zakitaro (talk) 12:40, July 20, 2015 (UTC) :Why do you believe they had the power to take away Ganondorf's triforce piece? Or that they even had a role to play in Link's sealing away? Most of them weren't even aware they were sages at the time and Rauru's dialogue suggests that it's the nature of the Master Sword that sealed him away (so you could probably blame the whole situation on Phi, a character who was made over a decade later). I'm just going to repeat what I said before, it's a completely opinionated and uncertain moral subject based on something that happens in another game that is only confirmed in an external source that contradicts its own reasoning. It has no place in this article. As for the descendant thing we already have that right there in the article with the confirmation mentioned in Hyrule Historia. Oni Link 14:11, July 20, 2015 (UTC) ::Probably the same reason why Ganon managed to take away a Triforce piece from someone in some of the games. Also to be noted is they just waited for Link's unsealing (as stated in their dialogue). Ether way though, the part about how their actions led to the Great Flood is quite noteworthy if you ask me. It's not necessarily an opinion, rather just pointing out their actions (pretty much the part where they used a seal that broke after some time) technically leading to all that tragedy and also the Hero of Time becoming the Hero's Shade (In their leader's part). Exactly who are you referring to when you wrote "phi"? Do you mean "Fi"? If so, then don't you remember how she was sent to sleep after the adventure? I doubt she had anything to do with that though, seeing as how that concept of being too young was used only once. As for the descendant thing, it may not be necessary, but it's not like it's wrong, is it? It does make things much easier to understand for newer Zelda fans and better connects the pages and games together.--Zakitaro (talk) 06:51, July 21, 2015 (UTC) :So about this sages stuff, does anyone have an opposing opinion to point out?